Talk:Superman (Post-Flashpoint)/@comment-26132686-20150721164259/@comment-26333664-20150721221212
"I will NOT talk about it in the OBD. I don´t CARE about the OBD or their reasoning. This page is independent from the OBD and no matter which conclusion they reach over there is not important as long as the members of this wiki reach different results. The OBD for example also doubts that higher dimensional characters are stronger than lower dimensional, but that isn´t a reason to change it on this wiki and nobody here has any obligation to discuss that with people from the OBD. You are free to ask them for a proper explanation of their reasoning and bring it up here, but I will not do so." In other words you know that you are wrong and are being disingenuous, no need to be so defensive about it bro :/ "Kumagawas ability or reality warping are what I classify as hax. As they don´t have a proper physical explanation I don´t think any form of calculation applys to them." I don't see why they wouldn't, a feat is a feat no matter what the means. "As such for this abilitys one can only go after the direct feats. In this point we disagree fundamentally, which means that it is for now pointless to discuss this further, we will come back to it as soon as everything else is discussed." Alright, fair enough. "about this. This deduction is not quite right. The rule basically is that the author is allowed to ignore proper physics, but we arent. So that no sonic boom occurs even through a character moves super sonic is because the author ignores this physical effect." See? You get it. We take the calcuable portions from the feat and give the feat the benefit of the doubt since very few authors are even semi knowledgeable in physics. Accepting it there but not accepting it with black hole feats like this are a '''huge '''double standard. "But you can not take an impossible physical effect, like for example a time stop and make a calculation based on that." When has anybody ever tried calculating a time stop? That's one of the most straightforward abilities out there. "So using the time stop example, since time dilation becomes infinite when approaching the speed of light you can not conclude that that character has actually accelerated the world around him to the speed of light and can because of that produce infinite energy. That would just be an error in physics." Yeah, because 99% of the time the time freezer's power is explained to be freezing the space/time continuum or something of that sort. No such alternate explanation here. "The feat happened near earth, right? If that much energy would be produced anywhere close to earth than there would be a lot of dead people on earth, actually the planet would probably be destroyed. So that would be a point against that much energy produced." Attack potency =/= area of effect. Furthermore the black hole's area of effect was being suppressed against earth because Brainiac still wanted to absorb the consciousness of everybody on earth, which you would know if you bothered reading it. "We are assuming for the moment that Superman did use Hawking radiation to collapse the black hole (to say it clearly I still do not agree with this point, but I will act like I do for the moment)." Because he did unless you can argue a more likely explanation backed by science. "So as you said Superman did speed up the process. That would be what we assume in that case. Now what I am saying is, that the energy released from the black hole wouldn´t be supermans. The source of the energy that was calculated is the black hole. This energy was never in Supermans body or under his control." Yes, it is. '''He '''was the one who affected the black hole. Maybe you would have a case if it collapsed over a period of years, but since it collapsed immediately thanks to Supes we can easily attribute the joules value to him. Or did the black hole just magically grow a brain and say "man, that Superman is pretty heroic. I should just kill myself so that Brainiac does not use me" "What he did with his power was, again, speed up hawking radiation, so that is what you would need to calculate. Basically you would need to calculate the energy required to make it so that vacuum fluctuations happen more often at the event horizon. If that is the case than you would basically try to calculate the energy required to manipulate probability, which can not be simply changed through energy. So you won´t get a result for that." Again, occam's razor. The black hole collapsed, none of the things you described are even remotely hinted at happening in the comic, black hole collapses convert mass into energy, '''that is what happened on panel '''and who caused it again? That's right, it was Superman. Every single black hole calculation uses the same method, so you either have to get the entire VS Battles wiki to agree to throw out every single black hole collapse calculation ever made or leave it be. The vast majority of members here accept the method, so that will get nowhere. "Ok there is one other option. That option would be that superman can produce negativ energy. For one thing that ability in itself would ignore common durability anyway, but we can say that on the attack potency chart negative energy = positive energy, I guess. In that case there is still a problem. Time. In order to now how much negative energy Superman can output in a reasonable amount of time we would have to now the time frame. Now from what I can see there isn´t a picture that shows him actually doing that so it is already uncertain because of that, but there is another problem about the time. It happens in a black hole. Time in a black hole is strange and complicated. For an observer outside of the black hole inside a black hole the time that passes would be represented by an imaginary number. For someone inside a black hole the time passing outside the black hole would be represented by an imaginary number. So timeframe in the usual physical meaning of the word doesn´t exist here. (Also giving Superman an ability simply because it is the only explanation from which we can calculate out a number is something I am opposed to)." Except that there was a time frame for when he was in the black hole so your forcing of complicated physics in a verse that never used them is not flying.